İsmail Beşikçi: Kurds are in a much better situation than 60 years ago

Hülya Yetişen / DUVAR

Official ideologies are also defined as illusions against objectivity. Can we describe you as someone who seeks objectivity and truth?

Official ideology is not just any kind of ideology. It's an ideology that is protected and guarded by administrative and criminal sanctions. If one critizes or refuses to embrace the official ideology, there is high a probability of being subjected to such sanctions. Of course, one should always seek objectivity in social relations. Official ideology attempts to forge another reality by suppressing, concealing, distorting and undermining concrete truths. This is most conspicuous in the Kurdish/Kurdistan problem, the Armenian genocide issue and the situation of the Alevi minority.

Official ideology is the opposite of scientific thinking. Scientific claims can always be criticized whereas official ideology is a frozen thought that is impervious to criticism. There is little difference between religious dogma and official ideology.

What links do you see between criticizing official ideology using scientific concepts and the act of "stealing fire from gods" in terms application and results?

Noam Chomsky is a towering intellectual and scientist. He's the most influential critic of US state policies and still often criticizes them. But he does not get called into the police station or prosecutor's office as a result of his criticism. His home does not get raided early in the morning, his books are not confiscated, he is not taken into custody nor arrested and put in jail. That's because an institutional or official ideology does not prevail in the US. Instead, freedom of expression is a vital component of US politics, media, science and phliosophy. Universities play a crucial role in making the US a great and important state. The freedom to criticize functions effectively on university campuses as well as in the media and in judiciary organs.

Edward Said was also an important intellectual and scientist. When he visited the Arab section of Palestine in 1990s, he witnessed children throwing rocks at Israel from barbed wire. Said was extremely impressed by this actions of these children so he threw rocks at Israel as well.

Some Jewish people photographed Edward Said throwing rocks. Then sone members of the Jewish diaspora in the US filed an application the University of California - where Said worked - with these photos. They wrote in their complaint that Edward Said supported terrorism, promoted terrorism and hosted terrorists. The University Rectorship examined the complaint and responded with the following statement: "It is freedom of expression for Palestinian children to throw rocks at Israel. They don't like Israel and express these feelings and thoughts by throwing rocks. This action will not breed violence. This kind of rock throwing will not cause short or long term danger. We evaluate our professor Edward Said's actions within the same framework."

Freedom of expression and criticism in the US is an institution. It is a very valuable, indispensable concept for science, thinking and media.

Let's remember France in the 1960s. Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980) was heavily criticized France for its colonial operations in Algeria. He accused France of murdering Algerians. He even wrote a book entitled 'We are all murderers'. For these thoughts he was reported to Charles de Gaulle (1890-1970). "With his writings, statements and actions, Jean-Paul Sartre offends the French people's national feelings, he humiliates France. He must be silenced, investigated and punished" stated the complaint. Everyone knows how de Gaulle responded: "Jean-Paul Sartre is France."

I think I should briefly discuss the relationship between official ideology and intellectualism as well. Official ideology exists in non-democratic states and less developed countries. Official ideology is an institution in these places. In non-democratic states and less developed countries, criticizing the official ideology is the most important quality of being an intellectual. Therefore, a very strong connection exists. But it is also known that criticizing official ideology comes with executive and criminal sanctions. In that sense, it could be perceived as "Stealing Fire from Gods".

Who is an intellectual? An intellectual is the person who, with great risks, says the words the powerful, dominant and capable never want to hear. The intellectual is a vital, indispensable category for non-democratic nations. I don't think democratic societies need such a category as much.

Do you like music? What kind of music do you listen to? Is there an artist or band you have listened to a lot in the past or at the moment?

When I was younger, I was interested in Classical Turkish, Turkish Folk and Classical Western Music. Today, I'm more interested in Kurdish Music. For instance, I enjoy listening to Dengebejler.

Is there anything you regret doing or not doing?

Throughout my entire life, I have carried books around, and I still do. Sometimes I wish I had a car, this would make things easier. But while it would have been great in the 1960s, I guess a car is not a necessity right now.

Writers, artists and scientists often have turbulent family lives. How was your experience?

You are correct about this. They never wanted me to write, especially about Kurds. I was reminded about this whenever I got out of prison. Both my wife Leman and my relatives in İskilip expressed this concern. Yet against all odds, I never ceased to write and publish freely.

You have a 60-year long history of involvement in the Kurds' struggle for national rights and for the democratization of Turkey. Could you tell us about Kurdish people who have made a mark on you during this battle?

During this period, the moral and daily fight of many Kurdish people impressed me. From a moral stanpoint, the awareness around the Kurdish/Kurdistan issue and the personal struggles of Abdüsselam Barzani, Mele Mustafa Barzani, Abdürrezzak Bedirxan and Kadı Muhammed have deeply affected me.

When you talk about Abdüsselam Barzani's actions, do you mean his struggle or his general personality?

Abdüsselam Barzani (1868-1914) is a very important person for the history of the struggle. His appeal to the Ottoman Palace, to Sultan Abdulhamid II for the national rights of Kurds in 1907 was a very important move. This petition, which was also signed by other tribe leaders, included demands such as making Kurdish the official language in Kurdistan, education in Kurdish in Kurdistan, Kurdish mayors in Kurdistan, Kurdish governors in Kurdistan and spending Kurdish tax money on Kurdistan.

It is known that after this petition, the Ottoman State declared war on Sheikh Abdüsselam Barzani and sent armies against him. My article entitled "Three Kurds" and published on 28th February 2017 includes detailed information on this matter.

Compared to the days when you were conducting field work, how different is today's Kurdish nation in terms national awareness, social life, cultural and language development?

From the 1960s until now, the national awareness, social life, cultural and language development of the Kurdish nation underwent significant transformations. In light of this, one can say important and positive changes have happened since the 1960s. One can say the gains are low in comparison to the cost incurred. Still, my personal view is that the change since the 1960s has been important and positive.

When you started to work at universities in 1960s, it seems like your perspective on events was different. How would you describe this change in your thinking? As it is reflected in 'Order in Eastern Anatolia' and 'Kurdistan, International Colony'.

As you have probably noticed, there is a huge difference between the articles and works I published before and after 1971. The differences have to do with content as well as general thinking and themes. For instance, the contrast between 'Order in Eastern Anatolia', 'Socioeconomic and Ethnic Foundations' and 'Kurdistan, International Colony' is quite stark.

Thus, the question of why a writer's line of thought changes is crucial. In my case, the hearing held at Diyarbakır-Siirt Martial Law Command Military Court during 12 March 1971 regime was vital. During the period of indictments by military prosecutors and responses to these indictments, my way of thinking changed at its core.

The 12 March regime was a turning point for Kurdish history. For the first time, Kurds began to lead a forceful resistance against the state's discourse of denial. Between 1969 and 1970, some friends sought to develop an reaction against the state's denial at the Antalya Court. But it was only personal then. In the 12 March regime, the attitude was collective.

What does the İsmail Beşikçi Foundation do in practice?

Before anything else, the most important initiative is the realization of the İsmail Beşikçi Foundation (İBV) library. The library will gather almost 20 thousand books, more then 300 tomes of newspapers and magazines. So as a larger space is necessary, an archive has yet to be created.

The foundation has published many books so far. Publishing books is important as well. Although publications have recently been in remission, it's important to carry on publishing.

The Kurdish History Magazine also continues to prevail thanks to the İBV. We have visited many countries around to world upon invitation to speak at conferences. Periodical conferences and Certificate Programs are available at the foundation's İstanbul and Diyarbakır branches.

In South Kurdistan, in Hewler, the Wakfa İsmail Beşikçi was founded. This is not a branch of the İBV in İstanbul. It is a foundation established according to the Kurdistan Government's own laws. Still, two people from the İBV's board of trustees are among executives in Hewler. In this manner, the two foundations can work in coordination.

An "İsmail Beşikçi Humanities Research Center" was founded at Duhok University. This center has close relations with the İstanbul İBV.

In contrast to most of the Turkish left, İbrahim Kaypakkaya had a different perspective on the Kurdish and Kurdistan problems. He made accurate observations about Kemalism and the Kurdistan problem when he was only 24. Yet he was ignored. Why have you never referred to him in your works?

You are correct about your thoughts on İbrahim Kaypakkaya. He was referred to in some articles and books. But these aren't sufficient. In the future, people working on analyzing the history of Turkey, its official ideology, its critique and the Kurd/Kurdistan problem will definitely have to discuss İbrahim Kaypakkaya.

Where can we find these articles and books in which he is discussed?

For instance, the article entitled 'Shiism' ("nerinaazad.org, "kurdistan-port eu"-22nd January 2018) includes a sentence about him. I'm not good at using the internet. Sometimes I struggle to find my own articles. There are works with one or two lines where İbrahim Kaypakkaya is mentioned. But I can't find them easily. You're much better at using the internet. I'm sure you can find these articles.

Let's talk about current affairs. What do you think of government-appointed trustees? Is lawful politics for Kurds over or is there a will to put an end to it? Should HDP leave the parliament and return to the people?

These appointments are part of a broader objective to exclude Kurds from politics. This needs to be assessed from a general perspective in Turkey. In that sense, Kurds and other opposition parties need to act together so politics can more forward. Cooperation is vital so elections and election results can be valuable. CHP and other opposition parties have a crucial role to play in this process.

Some mothers in Diyarbakır have allegedly protested that the "PKK took their children to mountains" in front of HDP offices in the Southeast. The Government openly supports those complaints. What should we think of this protest? How should Kurds interpret this event?

It is wrong for these mothers to ask the HDP for their children and sit in front of HDP buildings. They are sitting in the wrong place. They should ask the state's security units and sit in front of their buildings.

For example, there are soldiers being held by the PKK. The families of these soldiers are asking HDP for their children as well. They should ask the state and sit in front of state buildings.

Will there ever be peace and calm in the Middle East and in Kurdistan?

When Kurdistan was divided, disintegrated and shared, one of the goals was to dominate the Middle East through constant instability. The plan would leave Great Britain and France, the imperial powers at the time, to always be present in the region in order to 'provide stability'.

It's important for Kurds to be aware of this division, disintegration and to act accordingly. We see this each time when developments come about regarding the Kurds and Kurdistan. Whenever a positive development has occurred for the Kurds, it was sabotaged in one way or another. We also see that in despite of the sabotaging, Kurds and Kurdistan have progressed nonetheless. The pursuit of peace will subsist.

The situation of Kurds and of Kurdistan has improved a lot and is in a much better state compared to 60 years ago. I believe the situation will continue to improve in years to come.